Trial Day 12

This court is now in session. Please be seated.

Good morning, Your Honor. May I proceed?

Yes, please.

Your Honor, before the court, we have the matter of Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. Ms. Clancy is present. She is represented by attorney Kevin Reddington, and the Commonwealth is represented by Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Sprague and Assistant District Attorney Shannon Buckingham.

All right. Well, good morning everyone. And good morning, counsel.

Morning.

Good morning, Ms. Clancy.

Morning, Your Honor.

All right. So before we get going, let me talk to counsel about today's schedule and kind of where we go. So if I could see everybody at sidebar, please. So are we set for the jury at this point?

Yes. Do you still have the driver in the DVD?

Yeah.

It might be that.

I don't think I made that statement.

Court, all rise. Jury is entering.

Here ye, all persons having anything to do before the Honorable William Sullivan, Justice of the Superior Court, now sitting in Plymouth within and for the Commonwealth. Your Honor, give your attendance and you shall be heard. God save the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. This court is now in session. Please be seated.

Good morning, Your Honor. May I proceed?

Yes, please.

Your Honor, before the court today, we have the continuation of the jury trial in the matter of Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. Ms. Clancy is present. She is represented by attorney Kevin Reddington. The Commonwealth is represented by Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Sprague and Assistant District Attorney Shannon Buckingham.

All right. Well, thank you, Madam Clerk. Good morning, everyone. What I'm going to do, as you know, I'm going to ask you those questions to make sure everybody was able to follow my instructions. And then at that point, we'll talk a little bit about today's schedule. All right? So we'll get to the questions. First question, has any member of the jury read, seen, heard, or overheard anything from any source about any aspect of this case that would affect your ability to be fair and impartial?

No.

All right. Last question. Is there any other serious matter or concern bearing on your service as a juror in this case that anybody needs to bring to my attention? All right, great. Thank you for following those instructions. Today, we're going to continue with the Commonwealth's presentation of evidence. The anticipation is that we will go probably similar to we had the last couple of days, into the afternoon. All right? And then after that, before I send you home, I'll talk again with counsel in regards to the schedule for the rest of the week and kind of where we are. All right. So when you leave here today, you probably have a little bit better idea as the schedule for the rest of the week and into next week. All right. And so with that, I think we'll return to the Commonwealth's case. Attorney Buckingham?

Your Honor, Commonwealth would call Daniel Lawler to the stand, please.

Good morning, sir. One sec. Stop right there. Raise your right hand for the clerk.

Good morning. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony and the evidence you shall give to the court and the jury [inaudible 00:04:08] shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

I do.

Thank you, sir. You may have a seat.

Watch your step.

Hi, good morning, sir.

Good morning, Your Honor.

All right, counsel.

Thank you. Good morning.

Good morning, ma'am.

Could you please tell the jurors your first and last name?

Yes. First name's Dan. Last name's Lawler.

And where are you employed?

With the Massachusetts State Police.

What's your rank with the state police?

Sergeant.

And how long have you worked for the state police?

Nine years.

At some point, did you work in an assignment with the Plymouth County District Attorney's Office as part of the State Police Detectives Unit?

Yes.

And how long were you with the Plymouth County DA's Office State Police Detectives Unit?

From March 2021 until June 2025.

I'm going to draw your attention back to January of 2023. Do you recall going out or responding to an incident that occurred in Duxbury?

Yes.

And the incident occurred at 47 Summer Street in Duxbury?

Yes.

And you're aware that that involved a death investigation, where two children had been declared deceased, and at the time there was another child that was being treated at the hospital?

Yes.

What were you asked to do or what was the first thing you did in relation to this investigation?

I responded to the South Shore Hospital in Weymouth.

And why did you go there?

I was advised by my supervisor to respond.

Okay. And were you aware that a woman by the name of Lindsay Clancy had been transported there, to South Shore Hospital?

Yes.

And when you arrived at South Shore Hospital, was a Duxbury police detective already on scene?

Yes.

And do you recall who that was?

Detective Matthew.

Now, when you, meaning the State Police Detectives Unit, are involved in an investigation, is it common that you would utilize the services of the crime scene services section of the state police?

Yes.

And the Crime Scene Response Unit?

Yes.

And in this case, did members of those two units respond as well to the South Shore Hospital at the time that you were there?

Yes.

Do you recall who, from the crime scene services and the response unit, responded?

[inaudible 00:06:37] Maureen Hartnett and Trooper Rostauffers.

Did you have the occasion to observe Lindsay Clancy at the South Shore Hospital?

Yes.

And she was in the emergency department, correct?

Correct.

And was she able to speak or was she intubated?

She was unable to speak.

Did you observe her to have medical equipment and being treated while you were there?

She had medical equipment attached to her person, yes.

And did you observe her to have injuries, visible injuries?

Yes.

At the South Shore Hospital, in addition to speaking to Detective Maffio and assessing Lindsay Clancy, did you do or serve anything on the hospital themselves?

Yes.

What did you do?

A preservation notice.

And what is a preservation notice?

The preservation notice is to preserve the defendant's urine and blood.

And you provide that to staff at the hospital to ensure that the blood is saved unless and until a warrant is obtained for that material?

Correct.

And in addition to serving the preservation order, did you collect some items that were removed from medical staff, that were on Lindsay Clancy, the defendant?

Yes.

What did you collect or what did they provide you?

It was her clothing, and a wedding ring, and wedding band.

If I may approach the witness?

You may.

Well, she's putting her gloves on. I have no objection to any of this, judge.

Okay. All right.

Sergeant Lawler, as far as the items collected, when they're received from the hospital staff, what do you guys do with them?

So it originally went to Detective Maffio from Duxbury PD. Then it went to me and then it was documented by Trooper Stauffers. And then some of it will go to the office, or it will go out to the crime lab. In this case, went to the crime lab.

Okay. But as the state police trooper on scene, the investigator on scene, you at some point retain custody of the item?

Correct.

And I'm just showing you a paper bag. Is that familiar to you?

Yes.

And is this the bags that generally the detective's unit or crime scene uses to put particular pieces of evidence inside of it?

Yes.

Since I just struggled to put the gloves on, I'm just going to show you the item, if that's okay. So I'm showing you one item. Is that familiar to you?

Yes.

What do you know this item to be?

A shirt.

Is it a piece of clothing that you obtained from the hospital?

Yes.

Does it appear to be a woman's tank top?

Yes.

Okay. And are you able to observe some staining on the front, looking close?

Yes.

And again, it's cut down the middle.

Correct.

This is how it was received from the hospital?

Yes.

I would move to admit the tank top as the next exhibit.

All right. That may be admitted.

Exhibit 223.

Thank you.

I'm showing you another item. Is that familiar to you?

Yes.

And what are these?

Jeans.

And these were also cut off the defendant and received by the medical staff at South Shore Hospital?

Yes.

And on these jeans, do you see a little bit of staining on the front?

Yes.

I would move to admit these as the next exhibit.

That may be admitted.

Exhibit 224.

Thank you.

Just showing one more item. Is that familiar to you?

Yes.

Appears to be a woman's bra, correct?

Correct.

Cut down the middle?

Yes.

And it has some staining in the front, in the middle where the cuts are?

Correct.

And is this an item that was collected, that was on Lindsay Clancy's body on January 24th, 2023?

Yes.

Move to admit this as the next exhibit.

It may be admitted.

Exhibit 225.

Thank you.

You indicated there was also some rings that were collected, correct?

Correct.

And eventually these items were then taken by Forensic Scientist Heartnet, and eventually they get returned to the State Police Detectives Unit, in your experience. Is that fair to say?

Fair to say.

Now, in addition to going to the South Shore Hospital on January 24th, 2023, did you go to any other hospitals?

Yes.

Which hospital did you go to?

Boston Children's Hospital.

And why did you go there?

I was advised to go there by my supervisor.

Okay. And did you learn that one of the children, Callan Clancy, had been transported to the Boston Children's Hospital?

Yes.

And were you there to just obtain what his current status was at that time?

Yes.

And the time that you were there at the Boston Children's on January 24th, fair to say he was still alive, but noted to be in critical condition?

Yes.

Now, in the early morning hours of January 25th of 2023, were you aware that a search warrant was obtained for the home of 47 Summer Street in Duxbury?

Yes.

And in your time with the State Police Detectives Unit and during that time in January of 2023, how did you guys approach the execution of a search warrant?

So the house would've been frozen pending the search warrant being signed. Once it's signed, we begin the execution and crime scene would document the residence inside and outside before we would go in.

Okay. So when crime scene goes in and they document, you're familiar they use photographs and video, right?

Correct.

And once they've gone through and documented the scene as it was secured, do you, as part of the detectives unit team, then go in the house to begin search?

Yes.

And fair to say there are a lot of hands on deck during something like this?

Correct.

And in this instance, the detective's unit was searching the entire home at 47 Summer Street, including three floors, basement, first floor, second floor, as well as any vehicles that were on the property?

Correct.

And in addition to people or troopers with the detectives unit, were there other local law enforcement also assisting?

Yes.

And what was your role that night or that morning in the execution of the warrant?

I was the evidence officer.

And what does that mean?

I document evidence that is located by investigators during the search warrant.

And so, at that time period, when you're executing a search warrant and searching a place like a home, is the information that you know at that point what guides the search?

Yes.

So you don't know what you're looking for unless you know what happened, right?

Correct.

So in this circumstance, fair to say the state police had limited information about what had actually transpired in that house?

Correct.

But each and every room was searched to your knowledge?

To my knowledge, yes.

And your role was just to document items that were going to be collected and returned to the State Police Detectives Unit?

To document items that would be collected and needed to go back to the State Police Detectives Unit or to the crime lab.

Okay. And fair to say when the crime lab takes items back to the lab, they have an entirely different process on how to monitor, track them and inventory the items, correct?

Correct.

So in this particular warrant of execution, did you engage in the search?

Yes.

And you said you documented what other members of the group found and located where they located it, correct?

Correct.

And so you, as the evidence officer, were aware that Trooper Rabbit located some prescription pill bottles in the kitchen that morning, correct?

Correct.

And so, as the evidence officer, were you responsible for kind of keeping custody of those bottles?

Correct.

At some later point, after those bottles were photographed and collected, did you inventory those bottles?

Yes.

I'm going to just show you what's been marked as Exhibit 155, if I may approach the witness.

You may.

So Sergeant, just showing you this bag here. It's already been marked Exhibit 155. I'm going to show you four pill bottles. And you could take a look at them. Do they look familiar to you?

Yes.

Okay. So the first one I'm looking at is labeled Trazodone. And as far as how you inventory these, what do you do when you inventory them?

Just count them.

Okay. So do you also review the information on the label as to what should be in the bottle or what the original prescription was?

Yes.

So as far as the Trazodone, it says filled on January 12th, 2023 with 30 in it. And so you counted to determine how many were left, right?

Correct.

And so fair to say there were 20 remaining in this bottle when you inventoried it?

Correct.

The diazepam five milligrams, date filled January 9th of 2023, with 14 as the quantity, you counted what was in this bottle?

Correct.

And there's two and a half left in there, correct?

Correct.

And diazepam two milligrams, date filled January 16th, 2023. It has three listed on there, right? In type?

Yes.

But there appears to be a pink mark through it.

Correct.

Did you put that pink mark on there?

No.

Would that have been there when the bottle was seized?

It could have been.

Okay. But regardless of how many it said were the quantity, you counted how many were actually in this bottle?

Correct.

And fair to say there were nine and a half remaining in that bottle?

Correct.

And the last one, amitriptyline, 10 milligrams. It says date filled January 16th, 2023. Quantity: 30. And you counted how many were left in this bottle as well?

Correct.

And there were 22 in this bottle?

Correct.

And you documented that as this was put into evidence in the state police?

Yes.

Did you search in the upstairs master bedroom of the house during the search warrant?

Yes, I assisted with the search.

Did you locate anything that you documented or collected to take back to the state police?

Yes.

In the master bedroom?

Yes.

Okay. What did you locate?

I believe it was a baby monitor and a Google Nest camera.

Okay. Did you observe the room, the master bedroom?

Yes.

And did you search in a nightstand that was next to the bed?

I don't recall searching on a nightstand next to the bed.

Were there other investigators that were also in the room, searching other areas of the bedroom?

Yes.

And as far as any additional work you did on this particular investigation, again, fair to say the detectives unit works as a team and divides up work for follow up?

Correct.

And you participated in some follow-up investigation by speaking to some witnesses, correct?

Correct.

And at some point you were also asked to go to the Brigham and Women's Hospital, where the defendant was following the Sheriff's Department, keeping watch of her?

Correct.

Do you recall what day you went there?

I don't recall the exact date.

Okay. When you went to the Brigham and Women's Hospital, was she in her own room or was she in an open area?

She was in her own room.

When you were there on watch, did you go into the room or were you outside the room?

Outside the room.

And as far as your memory of whether anyone else besides medical staff went in there, at any point when you were there at the Brigham Hospital, did you observe another individual come in to visit with her or meet with her?

Yes.

And were you advised that that person was coming in?

Yes.

And were you advised that that person was allowed in with a court order?

Yes.

Okay. When the person went in, did you know if it was an attorney, a doctor, somebody else?

It was not an attorney. It wasn't a doctor. It was, I believe, a psychiatrist.

And when that person went into the room, did you go in the room as well?

No.

And where did you stay?

Outside the room.

And when this man went into the room, did he leave the door open or close the door, if you recall?

I believe it was closed.

And when he came out, did he speak with you?

I don't recall.

Okay. But as far as you knew at that time period, that person was permitted to be in there and could close the door?

Correct.

And you don't know what was said or what was done in that room?

No. No.

Thank you.

Mr. Reddington.

So your position was as a sergeant for the state police on these dates that you testified to?

No, sir. At the time I was a trooper.

Trooper?

Yes, sir.

Were you assigned to the district attorney's office?

Yes, sir.

It'd be the Plymouth County DA's office, meaning these prosecutors here, right?

Correct, sir.

Actually, you have an office in their office, right?

Correct, sir.

You don't have to call me, sir. So the first time you got involved with this case was on the evening of, was it the 24th or 23rd?

Tuesday, I think it was the 24th.

Okay. And do you recall what time it was that you went there?

To the South Shore Hospital?

Yes. I'm sorry.

Approximately 7:30 PM.

Now, at that point, you had known obviously that this was a major investigation involving the death of two children and one serious injury to another child. Is that correct?

Correct.

The media was absolutely insane, all over the location of the house and in the hospitals and everywhere. Isn't that right?

I recall media at the house. I'm not sure about the hospitals though.

Okay. It was a fairly horrific and largely attended to, if you will, event. Is that correct?

Yes.

And Lindsay was, when you went to the South Shore Hospital, that's where you saw her before she was transferred to the Brigham and Women's, right?

Yes.

When you went in to see her at the South Shore Hospital, she was in the emergency room, right?

Yes.

Would you agree with me that she was pretty well. She had the intubation tube in her mouth, she had tape on her face, she had her arms all taped up and wires, and tubes, and everything else, right?

Yes.

And it was a very confusing and quite frankly shocking sight to walk into that room and see her there in that condition, right?

Yes.

And you, about your duty, collected clothing in her wedding band, correct?

Yes.

And you went through all that with the items you seized and you introduced those into evidence and noted what the government said appears to be stains, but it was blood on her clothing. Is that right?

I would say-

[inaudible 00:24:15].

Yeah.

In your experience?

Yes.

Okay. Any shoes? Did she have any shoes, sneakers, slippers, anything like that?

I don't recall shoes. I think two black socks. I don't recall shoes.

Right. If there were shoes on her person or brought to the hospital, the odds are that when they saved the clothing, they would've saved the shoes as well, right?

Yes.

So you took the clothing and then you went to the Boston Children's Hospital, right?

Yes.

And after you left the Boston Children's Hospital, you went back to the house and then assisted in the search of the property with a search warrant?

Yes.

And were you the lead investigator at that point or were you one of the guys just searching?

I was not the lead investigator.

But there was a court order, search warrant, right?

Yes.

And you, meaning collectively you, knew that you had a search warrant that authorized the search for a number of items, including medications, or pills, or pill bottles, right?

Yes.

I don't have to grab this and ask if you saw this. You never did see that, did you?

I did not recall seeing that, sir.

You don't know what, if anything, was inside that item, right?

I don't know.

And counsel asked you whether or not it's a collaborative effort on the part of the detective units and that you all collaborate and work together. Can you explain that? Do you report to each other? Do you keep each other advised as to what you get for evidence?

Yep. So when we go into a house, we're not familiar with the layout. We'll walk the house and figure out where bedrooms are located. And then essentially we kind of just break up into teams, if you will, and search the residence as evidence is located. And at that time, as the evidence officer, I would be alerted that, hey, there's evidence here. We're going to document and collect it.

Okay. And you videotape the scene and you take photographs of the areas of different rooms, right?

I do not, but crime scene does.

But you were in the house and you were able to observe the rooms, you could see all sorts of wall hangings and paintings and fingerprints and hand prints and all that stuff on the wall, right?

Yes.

Downstairs, you saw in the basement or the finished basement, that there was an area that was an office or appeared to be an office. Is that correct?

I don't recall the exact layout of the basement.

Do you remember that items were seized from the basement, like a Mac Pro laptop, something like I have right here, there were two of them that were seized. Do you remember that?

Yes.

And from your investigation, you're aware that those would have been Pat Clancy's laptops, his business and personal laptop, correct?

At the time, I'm not sure who the laptops belonged to, but I know they were collected.

Okay. And how about Lindsay Clancy's, her cell phone? Was that seized, if you know?

I believe that was seized from the master bedroom.

From the master bedroom. And do you remember, was it located on the bed?

There was a phone located on the bed. I think there was another phone located in a dresser drawer. I'm not sure which phone was what though.

All right. So both of those phones, regardless which one was what, did either one of them have blood on them?

I don't recall.

But if you guys were seizing the items in the property, such as the cell phone that had blood on it, in your experience, you probably would've remembered that, right?

Correct.

And you don't remember that?

I don't.

Okay. You did notice a lot of blood on the floor and on the walls, on the mirror, and the window ledge in that area. Is that fair?

I recall blood on the floor by the mirror and then blood on the floor going towards that back right window.

Okay. At no time did you ever come across or discover a, what do you call it? Apple Watch, right?

No, sir.

And after you all concluded your search of the home, and how long did that take? A couple of hours?

Probably. I don't recall the exact time we concluded.

Okay. The next thing you did was to go to the Brigham and Women's Hospital. Is that right?

After the search warrant?

Yeah. She had asked you a question about Brigham and Women's. I mean, did you do something else in between? I don't know.

I don't recall exactly what I did after the search warrant, but at some point I did go to the Brigham.

Okay. Can you tell us when you went to the Brigham?

I don't recall the exact date. I was-

All right. So whatever date you went to the Brigham, you went there for what purpose?

... She was transferred to that facility and it was to maintain custody of her at that point.

So you were going to maintain custody of her?

So the sheriffs, I believed, had custody of her. And then our unit was tasked to facilitate, providing coverage over the next couple of days.

Right. And she was actually in the bed with all, again, tubes and all sorts of things coming out of her body when you saw her, right?

Yeah, she was in the hospital bed.

And she was in an emergency room. It was a little small room with a lot of machines in it, that took up a lot of space, right?

I don't think she was in the emergency room. She was in one of the floors.

One of the floor rooms, but it was an intensive care unit, right?

I believe it could have been the surgical intensive care unit.

Surgical intensive care.

Yeah.

And when you went there to facilitate custody, who were you facilitating custody for? The DA's office?

Yes, essentially.

Okay. Do you remember how many day days, was it like two days, a week, two weeks after the incident that brought you to the house in Duxbury? Do you recall how long it was before you went to the hospital to maintain custody, facilitate?

I don't recall how many days, maybe two or three. I'm not sure the exact count.

All right. So she had been transferred out of South Shore Hospital. She was transferred to Brigham and Women's Hospital. You went to Brigham and Women's Hospital. I imagine you had to go through security to get in there, right? Well, [inaudible 00:30:30], right?

At some point, yeah, we were probably assisted with security to get up there.

Right. Well, you know that nobody could get access to Lindsay Clancy in that hospital, and I mean nobody, right?

Correct.

And this went on for day, after day, after day, to your knowledge, facilitating, right?

Correct.

Her parents couldn't get in to see her, correct?

I don't believe so.

She had an attorney that had difficulty, not me, but another guy that had difficulty getting in to see her. Isn't that right?

I'm not aware of that difficulty.

I had to get a court order to get a doctor in there to see her, didn't-

I had to get a court order to get a doctor in there to see her, didn't I?

Yes, it was a court order.

And when I got the court order, a doctor came in and met with Lindsay pursuant to that judge's order. And that was Paul Zeisel, correct?

I believe that's the name. I'm not sure if he was a doctor, but I believe that was the gentleman that came on the court order.

Okay. Only because in your direct you said that he was not a doctor, but he was a psychiatrist. So I mean, it's just you knew that he had something to do with head doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, something like that.

Correct.

Okay. Did he have to clear it with you to get into the room?

He checked in with myself and the other trooper. We were advised that he was coming, and to let him in on the court order.

All right. Now, I wasn't there on that occasion, right?

No.

And when Dr. Zeisel or whoever it was, went into the room to see her, it's your memory that he was allowed to shut the door. Is that correct?

I believe he shut the door.

Now, you were involved in this investigation pretty intensely working with the DA's office, right?

Correct.

Isn't it fair to say that one of the contentions of the district attorneys is that Paul Zeisel, my doctor, that I got a court order to get in to see her, told her to call Pat and tell him that she heard voices?

Objection.

Can I see counsel at the sidebar in regards to this? All right. So members of the jury, like I said to you, I think a couple of weeks ago, sometimes I got to talk to the lawyers for a little bit longer than it takes over here at the sidebar. So this is one of those situations. So I'm going to ask you to go back to the jury room just for a couple of minutes, I think, and then we'll bring you right back in and we'll resume with the testimony. Okay?

Court, all rise. Good. All folks. On the chairs. Be quiet, please.

[inaudible 00:33:37] this court's in session. Please be seated.

All right. So counsel, what we're going to do is we'll have... Just so the record's clear, the jury's out of the room at this point. We will just conduct a short voir dire on the issue that we talked about over at sidebar. So I'll allow Mr. Reddington to ask questions at this point and then I'll allow Commonwealth to also ask questions. Go ahead, counsel.

Okay. Thank you. So you're in the hospital at Brigham and Women's, correct?

Yes.

And when you're there, with the purpose of obviously with other law officers to enforce the fact that she's in custody, Dr. Zeisel, or a doctor came in pursuant to a court order, right?

Yes.

All right. And obviously had been cleared through security and went into the room where Lindsay was laying on the bed, right?

Yes.

You don't know or you don't recall if he closed the door or if he kept the door open or if it was half open. You just don't remember, right?

Yes.

Okay. Would you agree with me that in the course of preparing this case for trial, that you have worked and collaborated with the prosecutors, the two district attorneys, correct?

Yes.

And you guys would talk about theories of the case and evidence that they want you to run down perhaps as an investigator or try to obtain or interviews and things of that nature, right?

Yes.

And one of the theories that they had indicated to you is that Patrick Clancy had indicated to the investigators and to the grand jury, I believe, that Lindsay called him from the hospital, right?

I recall that.

And that Lindsay used that doctor's cell phone to call him from the hospital, right?

Yes.

And they basically had a theory that they wanted to run with that Zeisel told her, Lindsay, to say that she heard voices, right?

I don't know if it's a theory or not. I just recall that conversation at some point.

Okay. So when was the conversation?

I don't recall exactly when.

Do you remember where the conversation was?

‍ No.

Okay.

I'm assuming at the office. I just don't recall specifically where.

And who was it you were talking to?

Probably could have been one of the troopers in the office working the case.

One of the trooper. Is it McKelligan?

Probably. He's the case officer, so I imagine it probably would've been him, sir.

Probably could have been him.

Yeah.

How about any of the prosecutors? You talk to the DAs about that?

I don't recall specifically speaking to a prosecutor about this.

Well, how about not necessarily [inaudible 00:36:41].

Conversation Lindsay [inaudible 00:37:29]. If the facts are [inaudible 00:37:50] check.

Okay. You already said that. I know and I [inaudible 00:37:56]. Right?

Yes.

You [inaudible 00:38:18].

She had told Patrick on [inaudible 00:38:20] the voices. [inaudible 00:38:50] Logan.

[inaudible 00:39:15].

Attorney Buckingham.

Anything about a [inaudible 00:40:04] did you? Had a conversation with the [inaudible 00:40:12]. Anything that you [inaudible 00:40:17] conversation with another trooper [inaudible 00:40:19] testimony today. [inaudible 00:40:25] that incident after [inaudible 00:40:39] husband, do you?

No.

All you [inaudible 00:40:59] the call was and who he said the call is from and how the call occurred, correct?

Correct.

Thank you.

So if I may, Judge?

Yeah, please.

So basically, my contention is that you're obviously up here testifying as honestly as you can. It's pretty apparent, right?

Yes.

And you're very consistent with your oath and you understand that it's important. It might be difficult, but you're trying to explain what your memory is about conversation with the lead investigator, McKelligan, right? I mean, you're trying to tell us what your memory is, right?

Yes.

So your testimony pertains to your conversation with the lead investigator, McKelligan. It's got nothing to do with the fact that you don't recall this or you don't recall that. What you've testified to is for the judge to consider, right?

Yes.

Okay. That's all I have.

All right. All right. Why don't we do this? I'm going to take about a 10-minute break at this point.

Okay.

And we'll come back out and we will resume cross-examination.

Okay.

Okay.

Court, all rise. All rise, please. Court, all rise. Jurors and jury. This court's now in session. Please be seated.

Your Honor, for the purpose of the record [inaudible 00:43:03] Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. All parties are present, including the defendant and including the 18 jurors.

All right. Members of the jury, thanks for your patience. We're able to deal with that issue. And so we're going to return now to the cross-examination. We're still going to take a morning break, as I've told you before. Might just be a little bit affected by the fact that you took that break. We didn't take that break. So with that, we're going to return to the cross-examination.

Thank you.

Mr. Reddington.

So Sergeant Lawlor, we're at the point where you are assisting, if you will, in the custody of Lindsay at Brigham and Women's Hospital when you observed a doctor enter into that area and ultimately into her room. Is that correct?

Yes.

All right. And the door was either closed or open or halfway, you don't recall, which is understandable, but you just don't remember if it was closed completely or open a little bit, right?

Correct.

But either way, you weren't eavesdropping or trying to hear anything, were you?

No.

And then when the doctor finished talking with Lindsay, at some point, you as investigators were aware that the doctor had allowed her to call her husband and use his cell phone to speak to her husband, correct?

I later learned that, yes.

And you later learned and knew from the investigation that it was fairly recently to that point that the tubes had been removed from her mouth and she was able to at least talk to a degree, and then she talked on the phone, correct?

Correct.

And after that, fair to say that you did not, when I say you, I mean collectively all the police officers investigating for the DA's office, you did not see any reports or anything that would indicate what, if anything, was said between Dr. Zeisel and Lindsay in that room, right?

Correct.

And who is Sergeant, is it McKelligan?

Sergeant McKelligan. Yes, sir.

And Sergeant McKelligan... Joshua?

Yes.

He's the lead investigator in this case. Is that correct?

Correct.

And at the time, he was a sergeant and you were a trooper, right?

At the time, we were both troopers.

Oh, both troopers. Okay. So you both got promoted. And he, as the lead investigator, told you in a conversation, or perhaps more than one, that the government theory is that Dr. Zeisel told Lindsay to say to her husband that she heard voices, right?

Objection. Form of question.

If you could rephrase that.

Okay. Did you talk to McKelligan about the theory that Dr. Zeisel is the reason that she told her husband that she heard voices?

Yes.

And do you remember where or when that conversation occurred or how many times that you guys discussed that?

I believe it would've been at the office. I don't recall exactly when.

Okay. And there's no investigator basis for that, that's McKelligan's speculation. Is that correct?

Correct.

When you went there and you observed Lindsay after the doctor left, she's still obviously in the bed because she's paralyzed, right?

Correct. She was still in the bed.

Was she restrained by either soft restraints or handcuffs or whatever? Do you remember, were her hands or her wrists restrained to the bed posts?

I don't recall specifically restraints.

Okay. And you mentioned that the state police were there. That would be people that were obviously working with you, right?

Correct.

And do you remember how many state police were there that you were coordinating or assisting?

Per shift, there was two of us.

Two?

Yes, sir.

Okay. And also, there were sheriffs from the Plymouth County Sheriff's Department that were there, right?

So we relieved the sheriffs.

Okay. And how many sheriffs did you relieve?

I don't recall exactly. Probably two though.

Okay. And how about Duxbury Police? You recall the Duxbury Police being there?

I do not recall Duxbury Police there.

How about the security cops for the hospital? Do you recall them being there either in the room or outside the room?

I don't recall them being outside the room.

Do you recall coordinating with the security boss, the head guy for the hospital security?

I recall having some assistance at some point from security to get up there.

Okay. And do you remember how many days it was that you were assisting in the custody situation of Lindsay before she was allowed to have family and me or different people visit with her?

I don't recall exactly how many days.

About a week maybe or less or longer?

Less than a week.

Less than a week?

I think. Yeah. I don't remember exactly though.

And even though she was allowed to have visitors, still the police presence was there. Is that correct?

After I left? I'm not sure after I left what the visitation was like.

So when you say after you left, do you mean when you left the hospital, you mean after you were finished with your tasked duty of dealing with her security and being under arrest?

Correct. After my assigned shifts, I don't recall [inaudible 00:48:22].

So after you were involved, obviously you don't know what happened after that?

Correct.

Okay. That's all I have. Thank you, sir.

Thank you, sir.

Redirect, Ms. Buckingham.

Sergeant Lawlor, in your experience working in the detective's unit as a trooper, is it fair to say you oftentimes will have conversations as investigations are unfolding with other investigators that you're working on a case with about the case, potential evidence, theories of the case?

Yes.

And is it also fair to say that theories change over time based on your investigation and what evidence you find?

Correct.

Is there anything about a conversation that you had with Trooper McKelligan about this theory that affects your testimony as you stand here today?

No.

And you didn't hear anything that occurred in that room that day that you were there when Dr. Zeisel was there, did you?

I did not hear anything.

Nothing further.

Just briefly. Well, your testimony, basically unobjected to, is talking about clothes that were seized at the house and the other investigation going to the hospitals. That's it, right?

Objection. Beyond the scope.

Sustained. All right. All right. Anything further? All right. Thank you, sir.

Thanks, Your Honor.

Thank you.

The Commonwealth would call Latiesha Dukes as its next witness, please.

Good morning, mam.

Good morning.

Stop right there. Raise your right hand for the court, please.

Good morning. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you'll [inaudible 00:50:57] shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth [inaudible 00:51:04]? Thank you, mam. You may have a seat.

Come, take a seat.

Good morning.

Good morning.

Hi. I'm going to ask you to keep your voice up and speak into that microphone. Okay?

Sure.

All right. Thank you. Yes, counsel.

Thank you. Could you please tell the jury your first and last name?

My name is Latiesha Dukes.

And how do you spell your first name?

L-A-T-I-E-S-H-A.

How do you spell Dukes?

D-U-K-E-S.

What do you do for work?

So I'm a licensed mental health counselor. I worked as a perinatal clinician at South Shore Hospital.

And what kind of education did you receive in order to do that?

So I have a bachelor's in psychology, a master's in mental health counseling, and a master's of education in mental health counseling.

And you mentioned the South Shore Perinatal Clinic. Do you still work there?

No, I do not currently still work there.

How long did you work there?

I worked there for about five years.

What did you do there?

At the perinatal clinic, I worked as a perinatal clinician, which involves short-term therapy from prior to birth, birth to postpartum. And supported with connection to care, whether that be therapy or higher levels of care, so intensive outpatient therapy, partial hospitalization, or inpatient care.

And do you often collaborate with patients and other clinicians at the clinic or nurses about treatment plans for patients?

Yes.

And do you help to manage the treatment plans with the patient?

Yes.

For your role at the clinic, doing the therapy and being the clinician, are you often referred patients by the nurse practitioners or somebody else who had seen the patient or did an intake with the patient?

Yes.

And do you work with that prescriber or practitioner over the course of the treatment with that patient?

Yes.

And as far as your role and what you do with patients, is it fair to say that a large amount of your ability to work with the patient is based on your relationship and rapport that you develop with the patient?

Yes.

And do you rely heavily on things that they report to you when you're assessing them diagnostically and trying to help them come up with a treatment plan and offering therapy?

Yes.

And one of the things that might be important in that is to assess a patient's presentation each and every time you meet with them, right?

Yes.

So do you do that in each appointment or each interaction with a patient, assess them for various things?

Yes.

And what kinds of assessments do you perform?

So I typically perform a psychosocial assessment, which is getting their behavioral health history, as well as their current presentation and reason for coming in for therapy. So whether that be a specific diagnosis or current concern or recent crisis or trauma, and also a risk assessment that assesses how they're doing in that moment.

Okay. And as far as the therapy component of your interactions, is that largely based on the patient?

Yes.

And what kinds of therapy can you offer in that short-term therapy?

In that short-term therapy, we offer cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy. I also offer something called EMDR, eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing therapy for patients that have gone through trauma. As well as it could be even short-term support, like a couple of weeks until they're transferred to the appropriate level of care.

And in your sessions with patients, is there a minimum or a maximum time limit?

Typically, our program would go from birth to postpartum up to two years. If it did go a little bit over two years because of lack of connection to care, then it would go a little beyond that, but typically it's two years.

Okay. And that's the duration of your treatment or your interaction with patients, but what about in each appointment that you have? Is there a minimum or maximum time set by the clinic of when you see a patient in a particular visit?

Yes. So do you mean as far as weekly or hour, half an hour?

Well, I guess the question is, if a patient's coming into you because they're referred and you're meeting with them on a regular basis, how long are the appointments and duration? An hour, half an hour?

So appointments could be anywhere from a half an hour to a hour based on a patient need at that time.

And when you're interacting with a patient and you're making all those assessments, are there tools available to you if you feel or you experience that a patient needs a higher level of care or is heading or is in some sort of crisis? What tools are available to you for that?

So tools that are available to me is connection to my direct supervisor as well as crisis coordination, as well as the crisis support numbers that are in that area. So I could either call with the patient or sit with the family, create a safety plan, and the patient can call later on if they feel like they're safe to go home and they have supports at home.

Okay. And at some points, could it be that you would need to involve authorities like the police?

Yes.

And you also are familiar with the Section 12?

Yes.

And then that it's an involuntary procedure where the court gets involved?

Yes.

Okay. Now, as far as when you do meet with patients on that regular basis, either for a follow-up or an intake, is it a telehealth situation, an in-person situation?

It depends on what the patient is comfortable with and what the patient is able to do as far as access. So we offer both in-person and virtual appointments.

Okay. As far as when you first meet with a patient when they've been referred to you, that first intake procedure, is there a recommendation for whether that be in-person or telehealth?

All the perinatal behavioral health appointments for mental health counseling are in person, that initial visit.

And then the subsequent appointments are oftentimes directed by the patient?

Correct.

Would there be instances where you would insist or prefer that the patient actually come in person if they've elected for telehealth?

Typically, you prefer someone to come in person because they have either fallen out of care or their concerns for their safety for some reason.

Okay. And if you don't have those immediate concerns and it's the preference of the patient, do you often engage via telehealth?

Yes.

I'm going to draw your attention to a particular patient by the name of Lindsay Clancy. Do you remember when your first contact was with her?

I remember it was around late November, early December.

Okay. And you're aware that she came to the perinatal clinic and was being initially treated by Julie Paul?

Yes.

And by the time you engaged with her, her care had been transferred to Rebecca Jollotta, correct?

Yes.

So fair to say you had the most contact with Rebecca Jollotta about this particular patient?

Yes.

And if I mention December 2nd, does that sound familiar as the first intake with Lindsay Clancy?

Yes. As I said, around late November, early December. So that sounds about right.

Okay. And the intake appointment, was it in person with Lindsay Clancy?

Yes, it was in person.

And what were the services that were being offered for her? Why was she referred to you?

So she was referred to me for postpartum anxiety and depression symptoms. Yeah, that's what she was referred for.

Okay. And in this first intake, did you go through that psychosocial history with Lindsay Clancy?

Yes.

And did you have some previous information from an intake with Julie Paul or did you do it fresh on your own?

Fresh on my own.

Okay. And so again, this is information that the patient is reporting to you about their history?

Yes.

And so in this instance, you noted that the defendant told you, or Lindsay Clancy told you that she had some prior contact with mental health, right?

Yes.

That she had engaged with a psychiatrist in nursing school and that she had been prescribed medication at that point, correct?

Yes.

And that prior to coming to the clinic, that she had been engaged with a psychiatrist?

Yes.

Did she identify what her concerns were or what her presenting concerns were to you?

Yes, she did.

And what were the concerns?

Her presenting concerns were anxiety, lack of sleep, depression symptoms, frequent passive suicidal ideation, thoughts of wanting to die and no longer be here.

Okay. And had she reported to you that she had been on a number of different medications?

Yes.

And you're aware that those medications were being managed by the nurse practitioners in the clinic?

Yes.

As far as your role as a social worker, do you often get into the weeds with patients about their medication?

I'm not a social worker, I'm a mental health counselor.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, no problem. But I typically have a overview of medications, but I don't particularly get into prescribing or how to take medications.

Okay. And so what's the focus of your role in offering counseling services to women with postpartum anxiety and depression at the clinic?

Yes. My role would be to create a treatment plan to address the concerns, which would be the anxiety and depression symptoms, and work on coping skills and building community supports around that. Or if she needed a referral to a higher level of care, I would do that.

And do you come to your own conclusions as far as diagnosis goes based on your interaction with the patient?

Yes.

And in this first interaction with Ms. Clancy, you got her history-

... with Ms. Clancy, you got her history, you also did some of those assessments, correct.

Mm-hmm.

And so as far as assessing her present condition, kind of how she presented to you, did you make observations of her mood?

Yes.

And do you recall her mood being low, that she felt numb and unable to laugh?

I apologize. If it's medical record, I don't have any objection, but I prefer not the leading. I have no problem if she reads from the record though.

All right. If you could just ... It was objection. In fact, leading question sustained. So there's no objection-

No.

... if this witness ... If you want to look at your notes. I don't know if you have your notes with you.

I do not. Do they have a copy that they can share?

I don't know if the parties have a copy that she could look at.

I do. I could [inaudible 01:02:54].

All right.

Do you have a blank copy?

Well, I mean, it has a date on it. It doesn't have a lot of notes on it. It's just [inaudible 01:03:02].

I can approach page by page. It's fine.

All right. Sure. That's fine.

So if you need or want to look at the rec, just let us know and we'll do that.

Sure thing. Thank you.

I'm just going to show you that page.

Sure.

I can leave that with her if that's okay.

Sure. Yeah.

So Ms. Dukes, on this particular visit on 12/2, what was her mood?

So she reported having low mood and feeling numb.

Okay. And so you said she reported. So in the note that you're reviewing, these particular questions or these observations that you noted, are they based on her reports to you about these areas?

Yes, and as well as my observation of her.

Okay. So did it appear that her mood was consistent with what she was reporting to you based on your observations?

She appeared to have, if you can say, normal mood. There was no tears or sadness or there was no blunted interaction. She was able to make contact, eye contact.

Okay. And kind of moving to what's identified in your record as mental status exam.

Yes.

What is a mental status exam?

So a mental status exam is an exam that's assessing how the patient is appearing, what she is reporting, as well as any concerns about safety, which would be any suicidal ideation, homicidal ideation, as well as any intrusive thoughts or worry, any hallucinations or delusions.

Okay. And so in this exam, is it a mixture of what the patient tells you and what you're observing?

Correct.

Okay. And if I can approach you with another page, page 53.

[inaudible 01:05:02].

Thank you.

In regards to, on this particular first encounter on December 2nd, when it comes to the mental status exam, were you able to observe her facial expressions?

Yes.

And what were your observations of her facial expressions?

She was tearful when discussing her anxiety symptoms.

Okay. And did you also ask those questions about thought, thought content? You just have to answer out loud.

Yes.