Trial Day 15

This court is now in session. You may be seated.

May I proceed, Your Honor?

Yes, please.

Your Honor, before the court we have the matter of Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. Ms. Clancy is present. She is represented by Attorney Kevin Reddington. The Commonwealth is represented by Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Sprague and Assistant District Attorney Shanan Buckingham.

All right. Well, good morning, everyone. Good morning, Counsel.

Good morning.

All right. Good morning, Ms. Clancy.

Good morning, Your Honor.

All right. Before we start, could I see everybody to talk about today's schedule? All right. Counsel, ready for the jury?

Yes, sir.

Yes.

Okay. I think [inaudible 00:00:40].

[inaudible 00:00:57] Your Honor. We have another matter at 2:00. It's just the compliance. I'm going to send it to a judge.

Court, all rise, please.

[inaudible 00:01:19]

Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye. All persons having anything to do before the Honorable William Sullivan, Justice of the Superior Court now sitting in Plymouth within and before the Commonwealth, draw near and give your attendance and you shall be heard. God save the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. This court is now in session. Please be seated.

Good morning, Your Honor. May I proceed?

Yes, please.

Your Honor, before the court today, we have a continuation of the jury trial in the matter of Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. Ms. Clancy is present. She is represented by Attorney Kevin Reddington. And the Commonwealth is represented by Assistant District Attorney Kenneth Stray and Assistant District Attorney Shanan Buckingham.

All right. Thank you, Madam Clerk.

You're welcome.

Well, good morning, everyone.

Good morning, Your Honor.

All right. Nice to see everyone. You know I'm going to ask you those questions and we'll talk a little bit about today's schedule. So first question is any member of the jury read, seen, heard, or overheard anything from any source about any aspect of this case that would affect your ability to be fair and impartial as a juror?

No, Your Honor.

Next question, is there any other serious matter or concern bearing on your service as a juror in this case that anybody needs to bring to my attention?

No, Your Honor.

All right. Again, thank you for following those instructions, and we'll talk a little bit about today's schedule. We're at the point in the trial where I think, as you saw a little bit yesterday, there's kind of some stop and starts to go through, and I think we're going to have a similar day today, all right? So I appreciate your patience with us as I deal with counsel about some things that I have to speak to outside of your presence. But as you see, the case is moving forward, and those kind of gaps or the stops that you see are part of the reason that keeps the case moving. So I think the schedule today will be similar in some ways to what we had yesterday, all right? And so with that, we're going to now return to the defendant who's presenting her case at this time. Attorney Reddington?

Thank you. I'll call Sue Clancy, please.

Mrs. Clancy?

Yeah, she should be in the hallway.

Susan Clancy.

Raise your right hand, ma'am.

Good morning. Do you swear that the testimony and the evidence [inaudible 00:04:36] but the truth, so help you, God?

[inaudible 00:04:42]

Thank you. You may be seated.

Hi. Good morning.

Good morning.

I'm just going to ask you to speak into that microphone. Keep your voice up if you could. All right. Counsel.

Thank you. Good morning.

Good morning.

Okay. Can I ask you kindly to keep your voice so all the jurors down here can hear you as well. Thank you. And just tell us your name and spell it, please.

Susan Clancy, S-U-S-A-N C-L-A-N-C-Y.

And what town do you live in?

[inaudible 00:05:12]

Okay. And you're married to Christopher?

Yes.

And both you and Chris are mother and father of Patrick?

Correct.

And you are obviously familiar with and know Lindsay?

Yes.

Tell us what your relationship was with Lindsay, how you knew her and things just background.

Yeah. Lindsay married my son Patrick, and we had a very good relationship.

And did you have occasion to go to their home-

Yes.

... in Weymouth on occasion?

Yes, I did.

And then in Duxbury as well?

Correct.

And obviously you and your husband were the grandparents of the three little kids?

Yes.

And how was your relationship with the babies?

Beautiful.

And tell us how frequently, to your memory, you were able to visit with your son, Lindsay and, of course, your grandchildren.

At least a couple times a month we would see them.

At some point... Oh, by the way, what do you do for work?

I'm an RN.

I'm sorry, an RN?

An RN.

And what type of... any [inaudible 00:06:17]?

I worked in the labor and delivery room for about 38 years.

38 years in labor and delivery?

Correct.

Helping women that were having babies.

Correct.

And obviously you kept up with the studies and continuing education and things?

Yes, I did.

To that extent, in your capacity as an RN with 38, well, back then it would've been 35 years of experience, I think-

Yes.

... fair to say that you, as I said, you would keep up with all of recent developments in postpartum psychosis, postpartum depression, all of that?

Somewhat, but I mainly just was in the delivery room itself.

So were you aware of the various physicians that were in the forefront, if you will, of postpartum studies as it relates to medicine?

Yes.

And would one of the people that you were interested in be a person by the name of Dr. Meg Spinelli?

Yes.

And can you tell us who Meg Spinelli is?

I don't really know Meg Spinelli well. We've spoken a couple of times. I believe she specializes in postpartum mental health.

And have you met with her before?

Not in person.

Okay. Did you at some point ask Dr. Spinelli to help out at your hospital in, I guess they call it a rounds lecture?

I asked her to bring on her experience and education in that area and share it with my colleagues.

And did she do that?

She did.

And as time went by dealing with your job, your family, your son, daughter-in-law, grandchildren, did you notice in 2022 after Callan was born, any change in the personality, if you will, of Lindsay?

Several months after that, I did.

Would that be sometime in the fall?

Yes.

And can you tell the jurors, being as close as you were with the family... Well, let me back up. As a mother-in- law, did you have any observation to observe Lindsay with her kids?

Yes.

Can you tell the jurors about how you saw her acting with her children as a mother?

She was very nurturing, very loving. She was a wonderful mother, wonderful.

Did you ever see her treat her middle son, Dawson, bad because she didn't like him?

No.

Did she love Dawson, in your opinion?

She loved her children, all of them, very, very much.

And during that period of time, let's say October, November of 2022, what did you observe about Lindsay?

She reached out to me in November and told me that she felt unwell.

Did she describe any symptoms for her?

She did.

Tell the jurors what she said.

She felt mostly she had insomnia. She was losing her appetite. She was very anxious and sad.

Did she tell you that she was seeing doctors?

Yes.

And at some point, did you recommend... Did she come to you and ask you for help regarding seeing a doctor?

Yeah, she asked for my support.

And you obviously gave it to her?

Yes.

And what did you do to make any recommendations for her?

I reached out to my colleagues who were running a clinic for women that were struggling postpartum.

Would that be the South Shore?

Yes, correct.

And at some point as a result of your intervention, was a nurse practitioner, Julie Paul, agreeing to step in and help out?

Yes.

Did Lindsay see Julie?

I believe she did.

And you really pretty much were out of the mix at that point. You basically made the connection, knew that she was on there, right?

Correct.

Did you find that Lindsay was interested at all times in trying to get better and see doctors?

Very much so.

Did you find at all or do you have an opinion with your observations of Lindsay as to whether or not she was offered help or would just spurn it and not see doctors and not have treatment?

She was begging for help.

And during that period of time, you were there for her by text and by telephone and in person?

Correct.

Now, during that time that you were, let's say November and into December, the holiday season, do you recall the holidays for 2022?

Yes.

Can you tell us, was that a fun time for the Clancys?

Lindsay was struggling. We were all very concerned.

And you knew in January, New Year's actually, that she ended up going to-

Yes.

... McLean Hospital?

Yes.

You know that she eventually got out of the McLean Hospital?

Yes.

Fair to say that you and Lindsay, as I said, communicated a lot by text messaging, right?

Yes, correct.

So I'm going to approach you with extraction report. This is a report that is done by the DA's office and the state police, Mr. Whiffin, on what's called Cellebrite, where they can go into... Did they examine your phone?

No.

They examined Lindsay's phone and obtained texts. Have you seen the texts?

I think so.

Okay. I'm going to approach you with the extraction report, okay, and if you can just take a look and see if your telephone number is on there, just for foundation purposes. Or if you-

It is.

It is, okay.

Yes.

And just quickly flip through and see if you recognize those texts. You'll have to look at all of them, that's for sure. They appear to be texts between you and Lindsay?

Mm-hmm.

Okay. Your Honor, I'm not going to go through each and every text. What I'm going to suggest is I would offer this and then the jurors would be able to look at what they wish.

Any objection?

Your Honor, the Commonwealth [inaudible 00:13:02] the same objection previously made [inaudible 00:13:04].

All right. Over the, yeah, Commonwealth's objection, that may be admitted.

Thank you.

[inaudible 00:13:15] 79.

Thank you very much, Mrs. Clancy.

Thank you. Commonwealth?

Good morning.

Good morning.

So you indicated that you've were a labor and delivery nurse for 38 years.

Mm-hmm.

And what hospital was that?

South Shore Hospital.

And early on in the defendant's career, did you work with her?

Briefly.

Okay. And she then went to Mass General, correct?

Yeah, she was a student at the time.

Okay. And you stated that you are aware of a doctor named Meg Spinelli, correct?

Yes.

Did you reach out to her in this case?

I don't remember exactly how she and I connected. I don't recall.

Well, you indicated that you connected with her in a professional capacity to have her come to your hospital, right?

Yes.

But as far as her role in this case with the defendant, did you reach out to her for that?

I don't think I did. I don't recall.

Now, you said that you began to notice some issues in... Well, defense counsel said October, November, but fair to say you weren't aware of what was going on until she texted you-

Correct.

... on November 16th-

Correct.

... when she was at the emergency room?

Yes.

And that was at South Shore Hospital?

Yes.

And you actually met her there at the emergency room?

Yes.

Was she by herself or with Patrick?

She was by herself.

Did you know how she got there?

She drove.

She drove herself to the hospital?

Correct.

And she was in the emergency room for a while, correct?

I don't know how long. Probably an hour, maybe two hours.

Well, you went down when you knew she was there, sat with her for a little bit, went back upstairs to your... Because you were working that day, right?

Correct. I wasn't able to go down immediately. I had to wait about an hour and a half, and then I went down.

Okay. And then you sat with her for a little bit, you went back up to work, right?

Yes.

And then you came back down at some point before she was discharged?

Yes.

Counsel, can I see [inaudible 00:15:37] just very briefly?

So Mrs. Clancy, you came down to the emergency room, and you sat with her for a while, correct?

Yes.

And did she tell you why she was there?

Yes.

And fair to say she indicated to you that she was having trouble sleeping, and she had some heart palpitations?

Correct.

And that's what brought her to the emergency room to get checked out?

Yes.

Did she tell you that she had consumed a weed gummy before going to the ER that day?

She did not.

Okay. And in your experience as a nurse, is that sometimes a reaction to THC or CBD or some sort of weed that somebody might have a faster heartbeat?

I don't know.

Now, when she was in the emergency room, she was seen by a doctor and provided some medication. Were you there when the doctor was there?

Yes.

And you're aware that the doctor, the ER doctor, gave her some trazodone to help her sleep?

Yes.

Because that's what she was really concerned about, right? The sleep?

Yes.

And when she left the emergency room, did you call her an Uber, or have Pat come and get her, or call your husband to come get her?

No.

She left in her own car, right?

Correct.

Okay. And so fair to say after that ER visit, you remained in pretty constant contact with her, at least via text message, right?

Yes.

And that you would check in with her pretty much daily, and that's all in these texts?

Yes.

Now, you were familiar with the perinatal behavioral health clinic because of your work at South Shore Hospital, correct?

Yes, correct.

And so the person actually that you connected with first was not Julie Paul, was it?

No, it was one of the midwives that I was working with.

And her name is Nanette?

I think so.

And so did she provide you with Julie Paul's contact information?

She suggested Julie.

Okay. And as a result of the suggestion, you reached out to Julie with Lindsay's permission, right?

Yes.

And you said that at that point you made the contact, knew she had spoken to Julie, and you kind of stepped back from the clinic?

Mm-hmm.

[inaudible 00:19:02]

Yes.

You're aware Julie Paul is one of the only prescribers that the defendant encountered that's not personally named in a civil lawsuit that's pending, don't you?

I'm not sure.

Now, so the ER visit is on the 16th, contact is made with Julie Paul on November 20th, right?

That sounds right.

Okay. And that would've been your phone call to her first?

I don't remember exactly.

In the time period while you know she was going and getting, going to see providers and meeting with Julie and going to the clinic, did you offer to help out more with the kids?

Yes.

You were still working full-time at that time, weren't you?

Yes.

So fair to say it was kind of limited based on your schedule?

Correct.

Did you have a normal schedule that you worked at that time period?

I don't know what you mean.

Well, as a nurse, did you work day shifts? Did you work mid-

I worked the day shift.

Okay. So did you offer to watch the kids at nighttime?

I don't remember exactly.

Did the kids come to stay at your house overnight so that she could get some sleep?

No, they didn't.

Okay. Fair to say you offered and she didn't want the kids to come to your house, right?

No, that's not right.

Well, were they, did they ever sleep over your house?

No, they didn't.

And Cora was five, right?

Yes, correct. She turned to five that December.

So at any point they never stayed over?

We decided together it was best for them to be in their own beds, at their own house with all their belongings. And Lindsay's parents were very actively involved in staying over and helping out. So it was the best decision that they stay home in their own beds.

So prior to the November of 2022, did you and your husband ever come and stay over the night so that Patrick and Lindsay could go off?

We never did stay at their house.

And as far as kind of watching the kids or taking the kids outside of the house during the daytime, did you often take Cora on kind of day trips, out to lunch?

Yeah, we used to go to lunch together.

How about Dawson? Did you take him one-on-one out to...

Not as much. He was younger.

And how about Callan? Did you ever take him out of the house without Lindsay?

No.

And are you aware that Lindsay told one of the therapists that she wasn't close with you as in-laws and that she-

I didn't know that, no.

That she said she doesn't generally allow the in-laws to watch her children?

I did watch the kids.

Okay. But are you aware that she told the therapist that?

No.

Are you aware she told the therapist that she didn't have any particular reason why and that they don't bug me about it, either?

I didn't know any of that.

Now, Lindsay, the defendant, she communicated with you via text about her issues with sleep and the medication she was taking, right?

Yes.

And as far as the ER visit where the trazodone was prescribed, do you recall having a back-and-forth conversation with her about that it's okay to increase it if you weren't getting any relief?

The doctor told her that, so I repeated that.

Okay. And so you're aware that she was, in fact, increasing the dose?

I did not know that.

Now, once the defendant, once she was seeing Julie Paul, did you continue to have conversations with her about how she was feeling?

Yes.

And you knew that she was taking some new medications after she saw Julie, right?

Yes.

And sorry, these pages are different than mine. At some point after being prescribed some medication, you recall that Lindsay told you that she thought she developed a benzo dependency, correct?

I vaguely remember that.

That'd be on November 29th where she says, "I just, deep down inside of me, feel that I've developed a benzo dependence after just two weeks of using it. And I feel like no one is hearing that and addressing it, and we keep throwing different meds in the mix that aren't really addressing the real issue." Do you recall that message?

Sounds familiar.

And she asks you or you respond, "So hard. I don't know what to do. So should you not use it?" And she responds, "I guess not, but then I don't sleep," right? Do you recall that?

I can't say for certain. It sounds right.

Okay.

I don't remember a lot of specifics.

And on November 30th, November 30th, she says, and I'm just going to, kind of show this in here, she says, "I'm not okay and I'm terrified of taking meds tonight." Do you see that in the green?

Yeah.

And then your response is, "Why are you scared? Why happens if you don't take them? What are you afraid of? What about Ambien," right? So you're actively trying to help her kind of figure out the medication.

Yes, there were a lot of medications.

Okay. You're aware she wasn't prescribed all the medications at one time, but just that a lot of different combinations were kind of thrown around as options, right?

It seemed confusing.

That she also... She's very clear and she tells you which medications she is taking, right? Ativan and Remeron?

Probably.

Okay. And then she also tells you on November 30th when you're talking about it, she says, "I know they take time to reach a therapeutic level to have the desired effect," right? Do you remember that?

Yes.

And then you respond, "Exactly." And she tells you that she's just depressed, and she thinks it was brought on by the medication, right?

I don't remember that.

Okay. Well, on November 30th at 7:52, "I was never ever this depressed. It was brought on by the medication." Did you say that, or did she say that?

She probably said that.

Okay. Now, you were asked about the holidays and Thanksgiving. You remember Thanksgiving? Where did you guys go for Thanksgiving?

To my daughter's house.

And do you remember telling the grand jury that during Thanksgiving, things were better?

I don't recall.

Well, do you remember her saying that she said things were better? Do you remember that?

Vaguely.

Okay. You were asked, "What was Lindsay like during the big Thanksgiving gathering? What observations did you make?" Answer: "She smiled. The girls all had Thanksgiving T-shirts on that sort of matched. We took a picture. She mostly focused on the kids and interacting with the cousins and the aunts and uncles." "At one point, she went off a little into the distance, and I approached and asked her how she was doing, and she said, 'I'm trying hard to get better. I'm still working at it.' I asked about her sleep. I though that was important, and also the fact that she lost some weight. She didn't have an appetite, and she said things were getting better."

Okay.

Now, during the holidays, you, in fact, took some time off of work so that you were around a little bit more, correct?

Correct.

And so when you were around a little bit more, did you spend all day, every day at their house?

No.

Fair to say you would come sometimes to play with the kids, right?

Yes.

Do shopping for her?

Correct.

And then you actually went on vacation?

Yes.

You and your husband went to Aruba?

Yes.

How long were you in Aruba?

Five or six days, I think.

Okay. And now moving towards Christmas, you had dinner with them at their house on the 23rd, right?

I don't remember.

Okay. Do you remember breakfast on Christmas Day?

Yes.

Was that at their house or someplace else?

Their house.

Okay. And then what did you guys do after breakfast?

We went to church.

And fair to say you've previously testified that breakfast was great?

Yes.

And that church was beautiful?

Yes.

And, in fact, the defendant, she told you that it was great and that she was glad she went to church that day on Christmas Day.

Yes, she did.

And then after that, you're aware they went down to Connecticut to see her family?

Right.

Okay. Now, are you a active member in the Catholic Church?

Yes.

Okay. So you're aware that murder is considered a mortal sin?

Objection.

Yeah. Counsel, can I see you over here? All right. And what that means is you are not to consider it for any reason or any purpose, okay? All right. Counsel.

So you were aware, Mrs. Clancy, about the stay at McLean Hospital from January 1st to January 5th, correct?

Yes.

And did you come to the house to help with the kids during that time period?

Yes.

And fair to say when she came home on the 5th, there was a party for Cora on the 7th?

Yes.

Did you go to the birthday party?

No.

Were you at the house much between January 7th and January 24th?

I don't remember.

Okay. Do you recall previously reporting that you hadn't been at the house?

I don't remember.

And during that time period, you never took the kids on a day trip or for a visit?

I don't recall.

And were you aware that between January 7th and January 24th that Pat and Lindsay went to the Cape Codder with the kids?

I'm aware of that.

And that they went to the Museum of Science with the kids?

Yes.

And that Pat left Dawson and Callan home, or excuse me, left, yeah, Dawson and Callan home to go take Cora skiing, were you aware of that?

It sounds accurate to me.

On the ski trip, did they ask you to come over and stay with Lindsay while she was with the other kids?

I don't remember.

And you were asked on direct examination about Lindsay going to see providers and you said, I think she was begging for help, right?

She was.

Did you attend any of those meetings with her, therapists or doctors?

No.

So you don't know what she told the providers, right?

I don't know.

And you don't know what kind of help she asked for other than medication, do you?

No.

And do you know whether there was any other options offered to her other than McLean, like a partial hospitalization program or intensive outpatient? Were you aware of those options?

Yeah.

And do you know if she went?

She went to women and infants.

So that's the one day where Pat dropped her off and went skiing and then came back, right?

I believe so.

Nothing further.

All right. Mr. Reddington, any redirect?

So she asked you about options that were available to Lindsay, correct?

Yes.

And you mentioned one of them was that she could go to the Women and Infants program in Rhode Island that specializes in perinatal and postpartum, right?

Yes.

You know that she went there, right?

Correct.

You know she was turned away because she was overmedicated, right?

Yes.

You also know that they gave her numbers to call suicide hotlines, right?

Yes.

She called twice, not once, but twice, and again, was turned away. Isn't that right?

Yes.

Thank you, ma'am.

Come on.

[inaudible 00:34:33]. But you're aware she was turned away because she told you she was turned away, right?

I don't remember the details of that visit or that day.

You didn't review the records, did you?

No.

So you're not aware that they actually deferred to Pat and Lindsay reporting overmedication?

I remember something being said that she wasn't a candidate for that program. That's what I recall being told by Patrick and Lindsay.

Okay. And that's because everything she described was reported connected to medication and occurred well after what's considered the postpartum period, right?

I don't know.

Well, you're a labor and delivery nurse. You know the postpartum period could be up to a year, right?

I've heard it could be longer.

But generally it's within the first 12 weeks that you start to see some symptoms?

I don't know.

But you're aware that she was sent from women and infants with actually several options where it included inpatient treatment for medication management, a partial hospitalization program focused on general mental health or continued outpatient management. That's what she was sent away with.

Okay.

Nothing further.

May I? One more?

Go ahead. One.

So outpatient management, that would include somebody like Gelada, right?

Yes.

Do you know that women and infants called Gelada and she never called them back?

I didn't know that.

Commonwealth, anything on that?

No.

All right. Thank you, ma'am. You may step down. Thank you. All right. All right. Well, members of the jury, this is one of those stops that I told you about we're going to have kind of throughout today. So I'm going to ask you to go back to the jury room, hopefully just for a short amount of time. Then we'll bring you right back in and we'll continue with the evidence. Okay?

All rise, please. [inaudible 00:37:01].

Jurors have exited the courtroom. This court's in session. Please be seated.

All right. Counsel, I know that the next witness is scheduled to be Dr. Laposata.

Yes.

And she will be testifying by Zoom.

That's correct.

‍ And I think that at some point after we talk a little bit, we're going to have to take a short break just to make sure that logistically everything's all set up with the doctor and the system here. And I appreciate everybody's help technically in setting that up. And I know that the defendant has provided, I don't know, maybe five or six exhibits that counsel wanted to introduce through Dr. Laposata. And so I guess Commonwealth, have you had an opportunity to take a look at these?

Yes. And we are objecting to these items. Yes.

All right. And so why don't we discuss those here in open court and go through it. And so I've had the opportunity to saw these this morning as well. And so Commonwealth, why don't I hear the objections and then I'll hear from the defendant.

The main objection is that the drawing is inaccurate. The window well is in the wrong place. And where they have her falling and landing in slide four would be where the window well is actually placed in the photograph. I can pass up the photograph to the court. This is in evidence, I believe, maybe a couple times. But talks are discretionary, but what they should not do is mislead a jury and present information that's not accurate. And so the drawing itself is inaccurate. And so we're objecting to these slides.

Is that the Commonwealth's objection is that the window well is in the wrong place on the drawing?

Putting aside the late disclosure and the fact that I don't know if anyone who created this is going to come in and testify that they created it and whether it's to scale or not. But the main objection is that it's inaccurate.

All right. Mr. Reddington.

Thank you. Your Honor, obviously the window well, you've got... This thing is ridiculous. The diagram we're talking about, the window well. You already have a copy of it, right?

I do, yeah.

The window well is depicted on the diagram, I suggest, accurately. And in fact, measurements were taken by the gentleman who did the computer animation in conjunction with information by way of medical provided by Dr. Laposata. And it shows clearly that, as Your Honor can see, that we're talking about the X-rays that are included. There are exhibits that she attaches that shows the way that she falls, how she hits her head. The Commonwealth has been suggesting that, I guess, that they're confused as to how she would have ended up the way she did. This shows the way that she landed on her head, gets to Jefferson fracture, falls back, legs are facing out from the house. She's laying in the snow. They're all depicted there. If there's an issue with the window well that's off according to the government, they could raise that on cross. They could say, "Well, the window well was really six inches to the left instead of to the right that never struck her anyway. It's totally irrelevant." I think that they are useful for a jury to be able to review. I did have copies made for the jurors and the court as well as the DAs. And Dr. Laposata has it. And then I could go through, but you can see that we've taken the diagram, the window where the body lands, and then to the right of it would be the actual X-ray. Dr. Laposata can compare the injuries, talk about the Jefferson fracture. There's a photograph that shows the blood in the snow, shows the area in the photograph actually shows the window well. And I suggest the window well on page six is exactly the way we have it depicted. So I don't know what the objection is. I would ask that the court would allow this to be in.

All right. I guess it appears to be slides four, five, and six certainly go towards the doctor's opinion as we said, the mechanism of the injury that shows the head striking of the ground. And then on the other part of the slide has the X-rays and there's also a slide regarding the Jefferson fracture diagram. And then five is a diagram showing how the thoracic spine injury could have occurred. And there's a diagram regarding the thoracic spine, specifically T6. And then slide six shows the... And I think there has been testimony as that is where the defendant was found. And also then there's a thoracic spine. I think it's either an X-ray or some type of scan, as well as some of the additional medical devices that were found in that area. I'm not quite sure about one, two, and three.

That's fine. I can remove one. I can remove two. And we'll just focus if you want on three through six.

I think that goes more towards the doctor's background and kind of what had been offered in regards to her opinion.

Your Honor, I think you said you were unsure of one, two and three.

Yeah.

And defense said he could go with three, four, five and six. So three was an issue, was it not?

What's wrong with three?

Well, again, I think four kind of would cover what's... Let's deal with that. All right. So I would allow in slide four, slide five, and slide six.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay.

[inaudible 00:45:21] objection.

Yeah, objection noted. And then what we'll do is take a short break at this point set up the Zoom call. Also, I know we're going to have to probably make certain changes to the jury book that was going to be presented. So the only slides that will be in that book will be, like I said, just so we know-

Four, five and six.

Yeah, just so we know which ones you're talking about.

Okay.

There's a book.

Well, no, it's not a book. It's just [inaudible 00:45:56] stapled together all of the exhibits.

All right. So just so we know what we're talking about, right? Four?

Yes.

And five is the thoracic spine.

Yes. And like I say, I've got enough for the jurors plus you and the DAs.

Okay. And then six. I just kind of want to make sure that we're all talking the same.

Four, five and six.

Okay.

Perfect. Thank you.

All right. So why don't we do that? We'll take a short break so that those changes can be made and we can set up for the Zoom and then we'll come back out and we'll proceed with Dr. Laposata.

Thank you.

Okay. All right. Thank you.

Court, all rise.

[inaudible 00:46:36].

[inaudible 00:46:36].

The DUI just [inaudible 00:46:44].

This court is back in session. You may be seated.

Your Honor, for the [inaudible 00:46:51] right of the matter, Commonwealth [inaudible 00:46:53] believes that [inaudible 00:46:54].

All right. Are we ready for the jury?

Yes. We have some kind of background noise. I don't know if there's anything that can be done with it.

I know. I'm not sure. I'm probably the wrong person to ask in regards to that.

I'm right behind you. [inaudible 00:47:16].

Let's see what [inaudible 00:47:28].

[inaudible 00:47:28].

[inaudible 00:47:28] your top guy.

Hello?

Wait a minute. Hold on.

Have a nice day. Is anyone there?

Hold on, Doc.

I'm not sure this is going to work at this point. So why don't we see if we could get somebody to address this?

We can see you [inaudible 00:47:55].

We'll get it done. But-

[inaudible 00:47:55].

.... we call someone at FTI or somebody.

Into the site.

So why don't we take a further break? We'll figure this out.

I'll ask the crowd.

Yeah. All right. All right. Thanks.

Court, all rise.

[inaudible 00:48:13].

[inaudible 00:48:13].

[inaudible 00:48:13] to do...

This court is back in session. Please be seated.

Your Honor, the purpose of the [inaudible 00:48:16] Commonwealth [inaudible 00:48:18] call [inaudible 00:48:20].

All right. So I think probably it makes more sense to address whatever the technological issues were on the Zoom. Maybe that could be done during the lunch period, and then we can go forward. I know the defense next witness would be, is it Dr. Condie?

Yes. Donald Condie, G-O-N-D-I-E.

And I know that we had talked about a possible voir dire in regards to Dr. Condie. Do the parties see the need for the doctor testify that or maybe we could just hear the offer of proof or what the expectations of the testimony is and then we can-

I don't know what the objection is.

Yeah.

So the objection is that we were provided with an affidavit. The original affidavit that was provided, counsel agreed that it referred to standard of care, which is not the issue in this case. Really reflects his opinions in a civil case. So we were provided another affidavit which appears to factually have the same numbered paragraphs and just deletes the ultimate opinion section and adds that Dr. Tufts and Nurse Gelada were aware that Lindsay was experiencing symptoms of suicidal ideation and a critically deteriorating condition while under their care and failed to take reasonable steps. So it's unclear from his affidavit what exactly he's going to testify to. Is he going to just reiterate everything that has been presented in the records, everything that we would expect defense counsel to offer through expert testimony in the criminal responsibility error about the medication regimens that the defendant was on over the course of several months? Because if that's the case, then I would suggest that this is cumulative testimony and that it doesn't need to be presented in this manner to the jury.

But let me ask this similar to the question I asked earlier to a similar objection regarding cumulative. The defense hasn't put it, this is their first witness in regards to that. Wouldn't the cumulative analysis be done if there's a follow-up expert that would be addressing these areas?

Potentially but that then becomes the defense's strategic choice about whether if they're going to call Dr. Condie for this piece of it and the other experts for another piece of it. It's unclear, especially where the reports we've been provided by Dr. Spinelli and Dr. Zeisel talk about polypharmacology as part of the basis of their opinions in this case. So it's difficult to assess that and we're obviously flagging in and objecting at this point based on what we know the anticipated evidence to be. So I don't know if a proffer is necessary at this point to outline what exactly he expects Dr. Condie to say and how that differs from the opinions of the other experts.

It seems to me that the main objection may lay in regards to Dr. Spinelli then, and depends on what her testimony is and how that overlaps with whatever Dr. Condie's is at this point.

If I may, Judge.

Yeah.

And I appreciate the fact that you recognize that we have not yet put on a doc yet. I don't have to accept their evidence. I don't have to accept their doctors. Our doctors, this is our first doctor who is a very qualified psychopharmacologist. I expect to elicit from him the treatment very briefly that she received and the medications that she was on and the effect of these medications as it relates to her condition when she was seeking medical help. That's it. I'm not going to get into criminal responsibility with him. I'm not going to get into lack of criminal responsibility with him. Basically psychopharmacology and the treatment that she received. He's not going to be criticizing what Gelada did, what Tufts did. He's just going to detail her condition according to the medical records and the medications that were provided. I am well aware and very experienced in trying jury cases and know when you lose the jury. I'm not going to have Dr. Zeisel and Dr... I'm not going to have make Spinelli wax eloquently for hours and bore the jury to death. I'm going to get right to the chase. Dr. Spinelli is a well-qualified doctor on the issues of postpartum psychosis and postpartum depression and treating a pregnant woman and/or a postpartum perinatal client or a patient. Dr. Zeisel is a general psychologist and will be discussing a number of issues as you're well aware, because he's been involved with Lindsay for literally three years, 46 times he's seen her or something like that. So I'm going to focus their testimony on those fields. I don't think it's necessary for us to have Dr. Condie get up here on a voir dire so that they can hear what he's going to testify to. I'm not going to have him rambling or going off the script. He signed an affidavit, which is even, I think, better than a medical report that you usually get. So they have plenty to cross-examine him from.

All right. And the intention is not to ask the question regarding standard of care.

That's correct.

All right.

It's all been deleted because they objected, we moved. Yep.

All right. So over the Commonwealth's objection, I'm going to allow at this point Dr. Condie's testimony in line with the affidavit, basically in line with that affidavit, with the holding he's not to testify as to the standard of care opinion as he had the original statement.

Can I just tell him that to make sure?

Sure. Yeah. I think that's a great idea.

[inaudible 00:54:40].

All right. So counsel, are we ready for the jury?

Yes, we are.

Yes.

Okay.

Bless you.

God bless you.

All rise, please. Jurors entering.

Your Honor, could we approach while they're coming in?

Sure. Yeah. And basically the real problem was a technological issue. It was going to be a Zoom call. There's been some problems. We're going to try and work on that. So instead of going with that witness, we're going to go on to the next witness and then we'll put the technological problems for later. All right? So with that, Attorney Reddington?

Yes. Thank you, Judge. Dr. Condie.

Good morning. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony and the evidence you shall [inaudible 00:57:31] swear to God?

I do.

Thank you, sir. You may have a seat.

[inaudible 00:57:40].

All right. Good morning, Doctor.

Morning, Your Honor.

All right. Attorney Reddington.

Thank you, Judge. Doctor, could you keep your voice up so all the jurors and counsel can hear you and tell us your name and spell your last name?

My name is Donald Condie, C-O-N-D-I-E.

And tell us, what do you do for work, sir?

I'm a child, adolescent, and adult clinical and forensic psychiatrist.

And can you tell us your background as to where you went to school and when you got your medical degree and things of that nature?

I graduated from Tulane University, then spent some time in graduate school at the University of New Orleans, and went to medical school at Louisiana State University in New Orleans. And then I came to Boston to the Massachusetts Mental Health Center to train in psychiatry.

And where is that?

The Massachusetts Mental Health Center was at 74 Fenwood Road. That building has been demolished and now they're at 75 Fenwood Road in Boston.

I was referring to more like, is that affiliated with any particular medical schools?

Yes.

What is it?

Harvard.

And what years were you working at the Mass Mental Health Center affiliated with Harvard?

I started there after medical school. I graduated in 1982 from medical school. Was an intern in 1982 to '83. And that was a Harvard affiliated internship. And then residency was '83 to '85 for adult training, two years. Then '85 to '87, which is two years of training for child and adolescent. Then I did a forensic fellowship also at the Mass Mental Health Center. And during that year, I spent some time at Harvard Law School as a visiting fellow.

And do you have, or did you have any board certifications that you can tell us about?

I'm board certified in adult and child and adolescent psychiatry.

Do you have a particular focus also on medications that are utilized in the course of psychiatry?

Yes. I've spent a great deal of my career treating people in the state system with psychotic disorders and mood disorders.

Tell us a little bit about that. Was there one particular period of time that you worked with literally more than a hundred people that had serious psychotic disorders?

Well, the Massachusetts Mental Health Center was a state inpatient facility. So we had many people with either no insurance or MassHealth insurance. Probably at least half of the patients at any given time would have had psychosis or a major depressive disorder.

Have you, in the course of your career, following through on psychosis or major depressive disorder, had any focus or treatment on women that are either pregnant or have had little babies and they are looking for help in the postpartum period?

Yes.

Tell us about that.

Well, starting in my residency, so in 1983, we had several patients at the Massachusetts Mental Health Center who were pregnant and were also sometimes afflicted with psychosis. We also had people who had delivered a child but were then hospitalized sometimes with a psychotic depression or sometimes with simply suicidal ideation. And I've encountered that very few frequently since then. I was for 14 years the chief medical officer of Vinfen, which is a very large agency with contracts from the Department of Mental Health and the Department of Mental Retardation in Massachusetts and in Connecticut. We ran about 350 group homes, about 10 people per home, so maybe 3,500 patients. We frequently had people who were pregnant and were taking medications for psychosis. Sometimes after delivery, the severity of their psychosis would increase, so I'm fairly familiar with that phenomenon.

Doctor, how many years have you actually been practicing now as a physician?

I've been a licensed physician in Massachusetts since 1983.

So what's that? '83, '90, 2000, 2026. Okay. About 40 years.

A little more than 40 years.

Okay. From 1990 through 2012, were you affiliated with forensic child psychiatry with Mass General Hospital?

Yes.

And were you also affiliated through 2013 with Mass General on forensic case consults in this field?

Yes.

All right. I'm asking, have you had occasion to make a number of presentations? We have to go through them, but did you make a number of presentations working as a lecturer for the various medical schools, law schools, things like that?

Yes. Well, during the time that I was at Mass Health Center, I was a fellow at Harvard Medical School.

What does that mean to be a fellow?

It means-

... at Harvard Medical School.

What does that mean, to be a fellow?

It means you're a resident in a training program and you're teaching Harvard medical students things about the specialty in which you happen to be practicing.

And what was the specialty that you were a fellow lecturing Harvard medical students about?

First it was general psychiatry, then it was child and adolescent psychiatry, and then it was forensic psychiatry.

You also have had various scientific and medical publications that you have been authored on a number of occasions, articles. Is that correct?

Yes.

All right. Your Honor, I'd offer his CV if I could, just as an exhibit, if that's accepted.

Commonwealth.

No objection.

Okay. That may be admitted.

Thank you.

[inaudible 01:04:59].

Now, Doctor, if you can tell me, do you know, not necessarily personally, but do you know of Lindsay Clancy?

I know about the case in general, but I don't know anyone personally.

Now you have never met her, is that correct?

That's correct.

You've never talked to her, right?

Never have.

You've never evaluated her for what's called criminal responsibility, is that correct?

That's correct. I have not.

I consulted with you for purposes of psychopharmacology and issues like that in this case. Is that right?

Yes.

Fair to say that we've had a number of conversations in the evening, off hours about various medications administered to women that are pregnant or postpartum. Is that right?

Yes.

Excuse me. Can you tell the jury, in a summary, what documentation, medical records, police reports, things of that nature on this case that you've had a chance to review?

Well, I've reviewed the records of Rebecca Jollotta, the nurse practitioner, Dr. Jennifer Tufts, the psychiatrist that saw Ms. Clancy. I've reviewed the Brigham and Women's Hospital records and the Women & Infants records. I've reviewed the McLean records. And I might be leaving something out.

You know about her background as far as her employment as a labor and delivery nurse and her family, her three children and her husband that she was married, right?

Yes, I'm familiar with that.

Okay. So if I could, Doctor, direct your attention to let's say the fall of 2022, end of September. Can you tell us what Lindsay's status was as far as maternity leave with work and any complaints that she had at that time regarding her mental state?

From my... Excuse me. Could I get some water?

Get some on the way.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Appreciate it. Sorry, my allergies are kicking up. So from my review of the records, which would start with Dr. Tufts' records, my understanding is that Ms. Clancy was planning to go back to work as a labor and delivery nurse at Mass General. She worked, I believe, the 12 midnight to 12:00 AM shift. And she began to experience, as she had to some extent after her first two deliveries, some postpartum anxiety and consulted Dr. Tufts at that time.

Now, after she had her third child, Callan, was she in... Strike that. It's fair to say she was in treatment with Dr. Tufts as a treating physician?

Yes.

Okay. And looking at your affidavit, I believe in paragraph nine, did you determine, from looking at the medical records as to the timeframe, that Lindsay treated with Dr. Tufts?

Yes.

And what was that?

She started in the middle of September 2022, and I'm sure that her last appointment was January 23rd, 2023.

Now, did you have a chance to review Dr. Tufts' medical records?

Yes, I did.

Can you describe them for us, please?

They are somewhat sparse and there are many check boxes in the records, but not a great deal of sentences that describe what was done during sessions.

Were you aware that the sessions that Dr. Tufts conducted with Lindsay from September, the end of September, up through January 23rd, were all televised on a computer?

Yes, they were all video.

Do you recall the medications that Dr. Tufts prescribed Lindsay?

I believe the first medication she started was Zoloft, 25 milligrams.

And what is that? Tell us what Zoloft is.

Zoloft-

What effect does it have on a person?

I'm sorry?

What effect does that have on a person?

Well, Zoloft is a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, which is a type of antidepressant that started being used around 1988, I believe. Prozac was the first one, Zoloft was the second. When it works to be helpful, it combats both anxiety and depressive symptoms that people might have. It also has, in some people, an effect of causing a feeling of jitteriness and increasing anxiety. So it's something that does have some potential side effects as well as beneficial effects.

And when she was prescribed the original 25 milligrams of Zoloft, did she in fact take that or did she defer on taking that?

My recollection of the records is that she had it prescribed, picked it up, but did not take it for at least a couple of weeks because she did not wish to take medication. She was, I believe, still breastfeeding at that time. There are medications, and Zoloft would be one, that would likely appear to some extent in the breast milk.

Okay. So because she was worried about that, she held off on that, but ultimately did take the prescription from Dr. Tufts, is that right?

The records indicate that she did eventually start taking the 25 milligrams.

Sorry. Does it indicate when she started taking them after that little hiatus?

To be exact, I'd have to look at the records, but I believe it was at the end of September.

And was that dosage increased at some point?

It increased from 25 milligrams to 50 milligrams.

And what happened when Lindsay took the 50 milligrams of Zoloft prescribed by Dr. Tufts?

The records indicate that she had a rather rapid series of difficulties. That she had insomnia for, I believe the records say 48 hours, couldn't sleep. It's something that would be called activation that these medications can cause in some people who are more susceptible.

By mid-October, after she began taking the Zoloft, would you agree that the records indicate, a week after starting the medication and increasing the dose, she reported in October to Dr. Tufts what you're relating is that she felt... How did she describe it to Dr. Tufts? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Well, she felt that she was... She talked about being numb. She talked about not being herself. She talked about feeling worse, not better. Antidepressants usually take at least two to three, and frequently four to six weeks, to have useful effects, but sometimes side effects can happen very quickly.

Did she also indicate, looking at your affidavit, that she was crying all day, she was experiencing mental fog, terrified to stat something new, anxiety had gotten much worse? Did she tell that to Dr. Tufts at that time in the end of October?

Yes, I do recall those things being in the record.

All right. And following through again on your affidavit, was there further explanation from Lindsay's recitation of symptomology to Dr. Tufts? Did she further state about racing thoughts, paranoia? What did she say? Looking at your report, look at your affidavit if that helps you refresh your memory.

I actually don't have the affidavit with me at the moment. I do have some of the records, but-

Well, let me just approach you then and hand you your affidavit, paragraph 13 and see if that refreshes your memory.

Thank you. Yes.

What did she say to Dr. Tufts?

Dr. Tufts reported that Lindsay's psychiatric condition was generally deteriorating. That's a checkbox on one of the forms that her records-

What did Lindsay say her symptoms were at that point?

That she was having the racing thoughts and that she was also feeling, as I said, not like herself. That her depression was worse than it had been. I believe that's also around the time that Dr. Tufts thought of trying a medication called Zulresso.

Zulresso.

Yes.

And what is that? You need that by way of injection?

Yes. Zulresso is no longer marketed. It wasn't a particularly successful medication. It requires a 60 hour continuous IV infusion.

In a hospital setting or in a medical setting?

You have to be medically monitored. It doesn't necessarily need to be a hospital, but those are not necessarily things that can be done outside of a hospital.

So she didn't do the Zulresso though, right?

She did not.

Okay.

It also costs $34,000 just for the medication, not for the monitoring.

Okay. What's the next thing that happened with Dr. Tufts and Lindsay Clancy, sir?

Well, if I look at my affidavit, when she stopped taking the medication, the Zoloft, she now felt better as she had felt before she took the Zoloft, but she was less anxious.

What was the next medication?

She was put on Benadryl and had some difficulty sleeping, but also was worried that night because her son was coughing and she worried a great deal about the children's health.

And that would be something that would also intrude on her sleep, worrying about her children?

Yes.

Okay. What other symptomology traveling through November into December did she relate to Dr. Tufts, according to your review of the medical records?

Well, she talked about things like dizziness, feeling sedated in the morning when she woke up, if she got any sleep at all. And I think she used the term brain fog at times. These are sometimes symptoms that people who are experiencing postpartum depression frequently complain about. She continued to complain about anxiety.

Well, it's not what they're complaining about. It's what they're living, right?

It is a very unpleasant experience. Yes.

And continuing on through November, at some point, did she leave or stop with Tufts and go to another healthcare provider by way of either emergency room initially and then another healthcare provider?

Yes.

Who was that?

She started treatment with Rebecca Jollotta, a nurse practitioner at South Shore Perinatal Program.

Now, one of the things that was apparent, if you recall, I believe, that she also had initially been referred there by a friend of the family, is that right? To that perinatal clinic?

Yes. My understanding from the records is that Ms. Clancy's mother-in-law was friendly with a nurse practitioner who practiced in the perinatal program and I believe had actually started the perinatal program.

Yes. And ultimately, or in the beginning, she was treated by a Julie Paul. Is that correct?

Yes.

Do you remember looking at the medical records and that on November 27th of 2022, Nurse Practitioner Julie Paul reported that Lindsay stated that she was disassociated and she was not in touch with reality? Do you remember that?

Yes.

And is that a symptom of psychosis, to be disassociated and not in touch with reality?

It certainly can be. Dissociation can mean that people feel like things around them are not real.

Right. And that's a pretty serious feeling to have, right?

It is.

And that's pretty common, unfortunately, with women that have postpartum psychosis, right?

It certainly can be, yes.

And what are the other symptomologies of postpartum psychosis, sir?

Well, psychosis in general just means a lack of understanding of what's real as opposed to what is not. So a person with psychosis can have delusions, which are fixed false beliefs. They could believe that, for example, they have been told by God to do something. They can also have hallucinations at times.

What kind of hallucinations?

Most people have auditory hallucinations, not visual hallucinations.

Auditory is hearing, is that correct? Auditory is hearing, right?

Yes.

Okay. As opposed to what?

As opposed to visual hallucinations.

Visual. And in the course of reviewing the medical records, did you see that, in fact, that Lindsay had auditory, no visual hallucinations, but auditory voices?

At times, she reported that she had heard a voice, yes.

Okay. Do you recall that as the time went by in December, do you remember seeing in the medical records that she was relating that she was heavy, that she couldn't get out of bed, that she couldn't bathe, that she couldn't react, she couldn't love, she couldn't feel? Do you remember any of that from looking at the medical records?

Yes. Those are all phrases that I recall from the medical records.

They were all coming from her, right?

Yes.

To the doctors?

Yes.

That would be Dr. Tufts and then Dr. Jollotta, is that right?

Nurse Jollotta.

Sorry. Nurse Practitioner Jollotta. Do you recall, sir, that Nurse Practitioner Jollotta prescribed additional medications to Lindsay during that period of time from November through December?